Hello All!
I have sad news. It appears I have lost this debate. It is over. I am waiving the white flag. Perhaps Jesus is God. You got me! You win….April Fools! Sorry, I had to get at least 1 person with that joke today.
No seriously, for anyone who may have been following a debate I have been having, this page will conclude the debate. The original page can be found here: Proving Jesus is Not God. On that page, there is a bunch of information, scriptures, etc. that were closely examined & debated.
Anyways, the debate continues. First, a few words for my friend having the debate: I really appreciate your kindness & willingness to discuss scripture in a mature way. I view you as a friend, and I am glad you have such a deep faith in God. I would much rather you believe in what you believe now than to be an atheist any day!
I also commend you on taking the time to dig up scriptures, type long replies, etc. Again, thanks for everything, and I wish you the best! God bless you!
Summary of the Debate so Far:
My Mission in this Debate:
My point in this debate has been simple: Disprove the notion that Jesus=God, provide an alternative theological point of view, and defend it. Again, I am a non-denominational Christian who is not affiliated with any church or organization. My summary views is that Jesus is the Christ, the Messiah, Only Begotten Son of God. He is the savior, he died on the cross, he rose to sit at God’s right hand. He is a separate thing from God. God is greater. God has all authority, God is 1 (not 2 or 3). Simple! Makes sense!
In order for me to “win” the debate, all I have to do is show that clearly Jesus is separate from God. I have to show that the handful of scriptures which say (in a very ambiguous way) that Jesus might be God are in fact misinterpreted, mistranslated, or the same phrasing is applied to others in the bible. I can also show that Jesus himself denied being God (which I have on the previous page. Furthermore, Jesus never says the words, “I am God.” Never. Nor do any disciples. The only verses presented are others calling him that (again, in a shaky way).
I also must provide a rock solid alternative theology that in no way contradicts itself, is a sin in any way, etc. It should completely make perfect sense, both in the New Testament & Old, and also when Jesus is in heaven, and not just in the flesh. I feel I have accomplished all of this so far, and I will finish this off in this post.
Your Mission in this Debate:
Your theological view is that the trinity isn’t true, however, Jesus=God. You say he was a manifestation of God. You say Jesus is God. Again, you reject the trinity doctrine, and instead hold to a oneness or apostolic type of doctrine (I am not sure your exact religion, you have never stated it).
In order for you to win, you must provide scriptures that prove Jesus is God with no translation issues or possible other interpretations, you must also provide a theology that makes perfect sense & accounts for the whole bible. So even if Jesus was God, it must fit in with the bible, and you must be able to answer very hard questions as to why Jesus is still hanging around in heaven (you have still yet to address that one). On top of that, you should show me that my view is wrong by contradicting itself (which it hasn’t), and also show my how my view could in any way be a sin (you have attempted this, but failed in my opinion).
Of course, let me stress one thing: We both have salvation from Christ. There are no “Losers” to this debate. We are both winners. But in the end, I think my view does make the most sense, is scripturally sound, and has no “mysteries” to it. Yours on the other hand, contradicts itself quite often, can be explained away with logic & Greek translations, and even if you were right, it still does not fit in with the bible in a non-mysterious way. Now, on to the debate:
Your Reply from Our Last Debate of: Is Jesus God?:
Hello once more. I request that this final letter be placed on front page as it is also my last. I appreciate your responding to my questions again and yet once again. As a Christian myself having God’s Spirit in me testifying to and with me the Truth regarding His Son Jesus Christ. I am writing this letter to answer some if not even all of your questions regarding Jesus Christ. I have many more Scriptures actually that are able to prove that Jesus is God the Son of God and also that He is the Father even the very Spirit of God. The bible says over and over that Jesus is the Son of God and we also know that Adam who was created by God is also called the son of God even all the angels whom He created were called the sons of God [Genesis 6:2, Job 1:6, 2:1, 38:7. God Himself placed these things in the Scriptures by purpose in order to show us something seeing how the Scriptures are no doubt the word of God spoken through the Prophets and others by the Powerful Spirit of God as the Scriptures express. There is one thing that is looking at both you and I even everyone who read the Scriptures but for those whom God has chosen He has given eyes and the ability to see the true meaning through the lies and plots of man made doctrine which also includes doctrine of demons because if they are not from God then who indeed is the author of them. Scriptures should flow as they are intended instead of twisting here and tweaking there to fit an agenda which in your case is to disprove the Truth and I say that you may have not meant this on purpose however I also say this to your shame. For by the Holy Spirit was Adam created even by the Word of God which is also the Spirit of God [Genesis 2:7]. God created first the Heavens and the earth by His Word [Genesis 1:2-3] and as Hebrews 11:3 puts it, “things which are seen were not made of things which do appear“. Now even you agreed with me in earlier discussions of this same topic that everything was created through Christ, the Son of God and my Lord Jesus Christ. Here!
are you
r words exactly “ It says God created the world through Christ. So it is not biblically inaccurate to assume Jesus had pre-existance in heaven as a spiritual being.”. I reject fully that Christ was a spiritual being that was made by the Lord God as you imply but I know that Jesus was there and is the great I AM as He claims not as you erroneously declared because you know that the Lord God said “tell them that I AM has sent me unto you” meaning that His name is “I AM THAT I AM” and also “I AM“. I believe for a fact that God said it this way in the Scriptures “I AM has sent me unto you” just for Jesus’ sake and for those who would believe as God intended. Ok in Colossians 1:16 let us look carefully and even deeper. Again I thank you for your time and effort to study these verses carefully since you said that if you had proof you would repent and indeed you should but must in order to receive true salvation. Colossians 1:16: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
18And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. There is absolutely no doubt that these verses are speaking directly concerning Christ Jesus. As you, yes even you have acknowledged at least that through Christ all things were made but wait it says very clearly visible and invisible meaning everything = things that can be seen and that can not be seen. We all know that the bible makes very clear that the Lord God is The invisible God [1 Timothy 1:17, Colossians 1:15]. Paul in this letter is expressing how deep and important it is to believe that Jesus is God and the Son and not separate or even an angel. Even if you say that “God used Jesus to create all things” which means that Jesus was God’s finger as the bible even declares that Jesus is at the right hand of Power [Matthew 26:64] but this is the same glory that Jesus had before the foundation of the world and we both know that the finger of God is the Holy Ghost (God’s Spirit) [Luke 11:20] thereby confirming my True belief that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are One. Your argument may be “ Are you saying that God created Himself?” Exactly, however it must be better understood than that because Paul is saying clearly that through Jesus all things both visible and invisible were created which is a simple statement. But if you read on you begin to see that Paul is expressing that since we know that the Lord God is invisible then that would include Him (the Father) also but in order to even conclude that Jesus created the Father to be true one would have to believe that Jesus is God Himself. Therefore with Jesus being the Finger of God (Holy Spirit) He most definitely must be God Himself also. Let me express it in a formula for you since you have a hard time accepting the Truth. Jesus=X and God=X therefore if X created X then X must be the Eternal God but we know that God was not created but is Eternal which agrees with my formula that Jesus is!
God and
Father and God the Son. I know that you ripped through the Book of John in a horrible way by perhaps something you learned from others who deny Christ as God but what you did is not from God. Now to address your sin which I could not recognize before but has been revealed to me because you claim to believe the way you believe out of ignorance, not enough proof, or even to be 99.9% sure but not 100% sure which is not faith at all but guess work. Your sin, will be revealed, not by me but His Spirit that dwells in me, thanks to God, shall reveal and convict you. If you reject the truth then it is not that God has not allowed His truth through Scripture to find you but that you have blinded yourself to comfort your own flesh having the ability to see and yet not seeing [Luke 8:10] by doing so you to avoid true faith in Jesus as the Son of God altogether. I mean this with all the Love of God for you that is in Christ Jesus, The Anointed One, The Messiah, the only True God and Eternal Life. Here are answers to some of your questions and trickery which you sometimes present in a sneaky way and you must admit you have. You say “Jesus told us to worship the Father” and you use this statement to claim that Jesus denied being the Father but here is the correct understanding: He said “A time will come, however, indeed it is already here, when the true (genuine) worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and in truth (reality); for the Father is seeking just such people as these as His worshipers”. So that you do not try and twist it up Jesus said “indeed it is already here” because He (Jesus), yes God Himself as a man worshipped Himself as the Father Who is also the same God, with the Son’s Spirit which is God’s Spirit in Truth. Next: Does Jesus Have a Different Will Than God? No, Jesus was God made in flesh which means He got tempted on all points as we do[Hebrews 4:15] yet He did not sin. I know that you try your best to play down the “Jesus was in the flesh” argument but you cannot deny tha!
t Paul t
eaches strongly about the flesh and its desires being totally different from God’s even how it wars against God. So since Jesus was being fought by His fleshly nature being also a man which the whole passage concerning Jesus’ prayer implies then yes you are deeply wrong even Jesus mad a comment to the disciples saying “the spirit is indeed willing but the flesh is weak“ do you suppose He was only talking about them. Notice when Jesus was being fought by Satan with temptations how the angels came to minister to Him [Matthew 4:11],
but there is also another place where this occurs in [Luke 22:43] but you already knew that but skipped it right? Luke 22: 42Saying, Father, if You are willing, remove this cup from Me; yet not My will, but Yours be done. 43And there appeared to Him an angel from heaven, strengthening Him in spirit. You say surely because in our world anyone who talks to themselves is insane and therefore you mock God Himself for doing so which is indeed a sin of many “for where did it ever say God does not command nor speak to Himself?”. Therefore you are determining who God is based on worldly thinking. I have Scripture to back up my belief because I believe Jesus=God. Jesus had, but because He was in flesh had all of the knowledge and Power of God that God would allow any flesh to have. You do know that because He was God in the flesh He also humbled Himself by limiting Himself while in it and not boasting on the fact that He was indeed God [Philippians 2:6-8]. Next: “ “Well then why was he able to know other things & even perform miracles.” Even you stated that Elijah did things of wonder in 1 Kings 17 but he was neither Messiah nor God and nor do I try to apply them to him but I correctly apply it to Jesus because He did even greater works than that of any prophet and wore His title as Messiah well. Now your question concerning the disciples is foolish on purpose because Jesus said that they may be one as we are One. You, in your shipwrecked thinking have sinned greatly because you deny the very God you claim to acknowledge. Most of if not all of your questions will be answered if you plug in the Truth. Have it not occurred to you that because you deny Christ and therefore God that the Scriptures will not reveal anything true to you [2 Peter 3:16]. Let us now slice through your formula and interpret your sin. Here is your formula of error which you typed: “Jesus=X, God=X, and Holy Spirit=X. In other words, they are all the same thing, and have no other mind. So if I believe in (X), and Jesus is rea!
lly God
(X), then it doesn’t matter. I believed in God (X), and Jesus was (X). They are the same thing. How could God fault me? I accept what the bible says, which is that he is the Son of God & Messiah. I followed his word. I follow God’s laws. I repent of my sin. I believe Jesus died & was resurrected by God almighty. Simple! That is the gospel in a nutshell“. Ok since you cannot see how error has grasp you and your soul then I will allow God to use me in order to shine light on your sin so that you can see how to repent in spirit and in truth. If you believe as you do that Jesus is not God the Father just the Son of God second to the Father then the formula would be this for Jesus/Son. Jesus=Y, God=X. X doesn’t equal Y. There for Jesus is not X but Y which goes against Scripture that God is One. Now since you believe that the Messiah is in fact something created by God and not God then your sins are not forgiven because God is indeed the Messiah and you think that Messiah is someone else. So your Jesus and My Jesus may seem the same but they are not because you do not accept the same Jesus that I do. You, in fact are accepting an angel or spirit that you claim is your lord while accepting God Almighty which is a name lower than Jesus Christ as the Scripture declares [Ephesians 1:21]. The True God is only answering to Jesus Christ now and you do not call Him that but you call him “Jesus Christ the son of God second to God in authority” when in fact He is Jesus Christ the Son of God, Father God and the Holy Spirit of God. I will let this truth cling to your mind as Paul puts it in Galatians 1:8 “But should we, or an angel from Heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached to you, let him be accursed”. Your sin is in not believing that God made a sacrifice because if God sent an angel or something He created then how is that son considered the Only Begotten or can receive an inheritance? But if God came Himself and took on our nature as a man then became the s!
acrifice
for us by dieing in our place and left the sin nature behind while rising up again and inheriting what already belonged to Him but now belongs also to those who believe and would believe in Him as Who He really is then I am excited about that and do see God‘s Love for me and all men. Repent therefore and acknowledge that you are indeed in sin and greatly for you are not only in sin but teach others to take part in it with you and that is my greatest concern. Indeed you reject Christ which means that you are not forgiven at all but blinded and have strayed far from the truth. I know that the Trinity is a doctrine instated which does not explain God but at least they believe that Jesus is God with the same authority as with the Father and the Holy Spirit. Will they be forgiven? They believe Him to be God and the Son of God and believe there is no Higher authority but all three are equal in power and authority. You, however deny Him His rightful place as God altogether. And therefore you have rejected Jesus Christ the Son and the Father also by saying and believing God is above Jesus Christ. When Jesus said He would draw all men unto Himself and also said that no one can come to Him unless the Father draws them to Him. A loud bell should ring in your mind or anyone else’s who believe as you do. I have much more to say but as it is my letters are very long. Lastly I thank you for your time and I do hope you place this in the front page of your site with your response.
My Rebuttal to Your Questions, Scriptures, Comments, & More:
I am not going to type quite as much this round, and I am going to try to address each one of your questions. Again, I do appreciate your replies, but you have still not answered the majority of my questions on the last page, especially the biggie (If Jesus is God, why is Jesus still hanging around in heaven in tons of scriptures). You don’t have an answer to that, because it can’t be answered logically. You also failed to answer many more. Again, that is why the trinity at least makes some sense to people. The trinitarians are smart because they make Jesus a different thing from the Father & keep it that way. They do this because they realize that they are still communicating in heaven. So they get to keep Jesus God, yet they also get to have them separate (the best of both worlds). But just as the trinity is false, your belief is as well.
In your first paragraph you go on about the truth in scriptures, how theology should make sense, a warning against man-made doctrine, etc. I don’t have a reply, and I agree totally. I guess you just fail to see that you actually believe a man-made doctrine, and you view contradicts itself countless times, and you can’t even explain them at all. I have taken a ridiculous amount of time to defend every single question directed at me, because it is easy to do it. My view still makes perfect sense (biblically and logically). So agree with basically your first whole paragraph (except the fact you think I am doing the opposite of it, when it is in fact you).
For by the Holy Spirit was Adam created even by the Word of God which is also the Spirit of God [Genesis 2:7]. God created first the Heavens and the earth by His Word [Genesis 1:2-3] and as Hebrews 11:3 puts it, “things which are seen were not made of things which do appear“. Now even you agreed with me in earlier discussions of this same topic that everything was created through Christ, the Son of God and my Lord Jesus Christ.
The bible calls Jesus the Word (John 1). He preached the word of God. He was the word of God. God created everything. How did God create everything? Through Christ. At least, that is what the bible says.
This does not contradict anything you posted above. Things were made by the invisible God. The invisible God made all things through Christ, who was manifested in the flesh among us. Was Christ God? No. They are 2 separate things. Christ was created, God has no creator. This contradicts nothing at all in the bible, or above. God does not have to do anything but speak a word & it happens. He can say, be…and it will be. Does God do all his work? No, he speaks the word and his messengers, servants, etc. do the work for him. You then continue this argument in great detail:
Here are your words exactly “ It says God created the world through Christ. So it is not biblically inaccurate to assume Jesus had pre-existance in heaven as a spiritual being.”
I reject fully that Christ was a spiritual being that was made by the Lord God as you imply but I know that Jesus was there and is the great I AM as He claims not as you erroneously declared because you know that the Lord God said “tell them that I AM has sent me unto you” meaning that His name is “I AM THAT I AM” and also “I AM“. I believe for a fact that God said it this way in the Scriptures “I AM has sent me unto you” just for Jesus’ sake and for those who would believe as God intended. Ok in Colossians 1:16 let us look carefully and even deeper. Again I thank you for your time and effort to study these verses carefully since you said that if you had proof you would repent and indeed you should but must in order to receive true salvation. Colossians 1:16: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
18And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. There is absolutely no doubt that these verses are speaking directly concerning Christ Jesus. As you, yes even you have acknowledged at least that through Christ all things were made but wait it says very clearly visible and invisible meaning everything = things that can be seen and that can not be seen.We all know that the bible makes very clear that the Lord God is The invisible God [1 Timothy 1:17, Colossians 1:15]. Paul in this letter is expressing how deep and important it is to believe that Jesus is God and the Son and not separate or even an angel. Even if you say that “God used Jesus to create all things” which means that Jesus was God’s finger as the bible even declares that Jesus is at the right hand of Power [Matthew 26:64] but this is the same glory that Jesus had before the foundation of the world and we both know that the finger of God is the Holy Ghost (God’s Spirit) [Luke 11:20] thereby confirming my True belief that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are One. Your argument may be “ Are you saying that God created Himself?” Exactly, however it must be better understood than that because Paul is saying clearly that through Jesus all things both visible and invisible were created which is a simple statement. But if you read on you begin to see that Paul is expressing that since we know that the Lord God is invisible then that would include Him (the Father) also but in order to even conclude that Jesus created the Father to be true one would have to believe that Jesus is God Himself. Therefore with Jesus being the Finger of God (Holy Spirit) He most definitely must be God Himself also.
Let me express it in a formula for you since you have a hard time accepting the Truth. Jesus=X and God=X therefore if X created X then X must be the Eternal God but we know that God was not created but is Eternal which agrees with my formula that Jesus is!
God and Father and God the Son. I know that you ripped through the Book of John in a horrible way by perhaps something you learned from others who deny Christ as God but what you did is not from God. Now to address your sin which I could not recognize before but has been revealed to me because you claim to believe the way you believe out of ignorance, not enough proof, or even to be 99.9% sure but not 100% sure which is not faith at all but guess work. Your sin, will be revealed, not by me but His Spirit that dwells in me, thanks to God, shall reveal and convict you. If you reject the truth then it is not that God has not allowed His truth through Scripture to find you but that you have blinded yourself to comfort your own flesh having the ability to see and yet not seeing [Luke 8:10] by doing so you to avoid true faith in Jesus as the Son of God altogether. I mean this with all the Love of God for you that is in Christ Jesus, The Anointed One, The Messiah, the only True God and Eternal Life.
About the whole ‘I AM” part, I have already addressed that, and I won’t go back into that. I will just point out that it should have said “I have been.” If he was claiming to be God, that is surely a sneaky way to do…using a word which means I am, and he & others used the same word other times when it clearly wasn’t saying he was God. He was proving pre-existence, not deity.
About Colossians: Yes, let us look deep indeed! First, I notice you completely ignore verse 1:15 which says, “He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.”
Let me just clarify something: Do you forget that in Genesis we are all made in God’s image?? Do you also forget that God was never born or created? To say God is created, is the highest possible blasphemy I can think of mentioned in the bible. If God was created, he had a creator. God is the only thing in existence that had no creator.
Yet, this verse plainly tells us Christ is the “firstborn” of God. He was created by God. Not only that, but if Christ is God, it should have read, “He is the invisible God.” See how it threw the word, “Image” in there. To show a difference between God & Jesus. Jesus is similar to the father. But he is not the father.
Are we to worship images? The bible right there just called Christ an image. What does the bible say regarding worshiping any image of any God?? Let us take a look at how God feels if we worship a mere image of him, or if we worship anything at all other than God as the Supreme God:
4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
Ex 20:4-6 (KJV)
Sounds like it isn’t a great idea to me! Especially since Christ told us to worship only the Father, the Father is greater, He has a God… and certainly not to worship the Son! God is pretty serious about Idolatry. There is nothing wrong with paying respect or homage to our Messiah & the Son of the Living God, but to worship him….Yikes.
Colossians 1:16:
For by him (footnote) all things were created in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him. And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together. And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeiminent. Footnote: By means of him or in.
This verse does zilch to prove Jesus=God. I already told you that Jesus was God’s agent in creation. God is creating, Christ does the work. This verse just proves my point. Of course God created all things in heaven & Earth…how? Through Christ. Very simple.
Yet you want to ignore the fact that the Bible plainly teaches GOD beget Christ! That means created. So Jesus, a created thing, can’t possibly turn around and create God. That is absolute blasphemy! The bible shows through the whole thing God created Christ, God is the Head of Christ, God grants Christ stuff, etc. How can you possibly say Christ created God?
God is not created! He has no creator. God just “is.” God simply “exists.” Jesus Christ had an absolute beginning. It says this repeatedly.
Again, let me help you to understand why this verse confuses you into thinking he created God. It says, “By him all things were created in Heaven in Earth.” God has no creator. He certainly did not create God in heaven. He created all other things that were created. That is what this verse means. He did not create God. God has no creator. He created all things that was created (other than himself of course). Does this apply to God? God has no creation/creator. God was there with Christ. It says this in John 1 plainly. So all this verse does is prove that God was already there (uncreated), he created (begot) Christ, and then God created all things through Christ.
Does that clear up your problem in that verse? It is very simply once you understand that God can’t be created, and that the “created” stuff it is referring to are all things in heaven and earth that was created (again, God isn’t created). Is God invisible? Yes, of course. Did Christ create all invisible things? Yes, Christ created all invisible things that weren’t yet created. Did Christ create God? God has no beginning, or creator. God is. Do you understand now?
Again, let me make this perfectly clear: Invisible God in Heaven with no beginning or creator—–>Creates a Son——->Whom through God creates all other things both invisible & visible on Earth & in Heaven. I really hope that clears everything up, because the bible clearly teaches God created a Son, his only begotten Son. To deny this very important teaching is to deny God’s message. God has no creator, God created a Son, God created all other things through the Son (Christ). No contradictions, no blasphemy. Simple!
About the whole X created X formula, I don’t think I need to say too much about that. You already realize this is ridiculous. It is complete blasphemy to say Jesus created God. I love Jesus Christ. But to say he actually created the father (something he says is greater than himself), is complete & utter blasphemy.
Instead, you need to consider the true formula (God=X, Jesus=Y, all created things=Z). X created Y. X then created Z through the use of Y, his creation. X created X is ridiculous. Nothing can create itself. God just exists. He has no creator. He has always been. God created Jesus. This is elementary theology here.
About Luke 11:20, Does that Prove Jesus is God?
You seem to think Luke 11:20 means Jesus is God. Let us take a look:
17Jesus knew their thoughts and said to them: “Any kingdom divided against itself will be ruined, and a house divided against itself will fall. 18If Satan is divided against himself, how can his kingdom stand? I say this because you claim that I drive out demons by Beelzebub. 19Now if I drive out demons by Beelzebub, by whom do your followers drive them out? So then, they will be your judges. 20But if I drive out demons by the finger of God, then the kingdom of God has come to you.
Finger of God here simply means power of God. Jesus clearly says throughout the whole bible that God granted him this “power” or “authority.” If you really think this means Jesus=God, then I have no idea what to say! It says we also how the power of the Holy Spirit (of God) to do things. Does that make us God? See how you neglect these scriptural facts in a disparate attempt to prove something that isn’t true at all. Moving On…
Your Reply to Some (only a few) Questions:
Here are answers to some of your questions and trickery which you sometimes present in a sneaky way and you must admit you have. You say “Jesus told us to worship the Father” and you use this statement to claim that Jesus denied being the Father but here is the correct understanding: He said “A time will come, however, indeed it is already here, when the true (genuine) worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and in truth (reality); for the Father is seeking just such people as these as His worshipers”. So that you do not try and twist it up Jesus said “indeed it is already here” because He (Jesus), yes God Himself as a man worshiped Himself as the Father Who is also the same God, with the Son’s Spirit which is God’s Spirit in Truth.
Once again, I find it sad that you completely ignore the whole part of Jesus being in Heaven & talking to the father, taking scrolls from him, etc. Your blatant denial and avoidance of this issue just blows my mind. Even the trinitarians get this point, which is why they say the are “distinct persons, but make up 1 God.” It is terribly obvious that Jesus & God are different. In fact, Jesus & the Holy Spirit are different, as the bible also points this out. In fact, let me show you how ridiculous it is to assume Jesus=God. He says something interesting right here:
31 And so I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. 32 Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come. (Matthew 12)
So again, another paradox on your part. Jesus right here sets you straight in your theology. If the Holy Spirit is a manifestation of God, and Jesus is a manifestation of the same God, don’t you find this verse strange?
Right here, Jesus says you can deny the Son of Man, and that is completely forgivable. However, he warns, blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is NOT forgiven. What a second? I thought Jesus was God? So right here he tells us that you can blaspheme him, and it is forgiven? But not blaspheming against the Holy Spirit of God Almighty? Hmmm. Interesting since they are the same thing (according to you). But once again, let us ignore this scripture, and hundreds of others to hold on to the belief system you were raised with…Once again…your theory crumbles in the light of the truth of scripture. Seriously, if you absolutely MUST believe the lie that Jesus is God, perhaps you should consider the false trinity doctrine, because at least then you can say they are different.
Here Comes the “Flesh Card” that Everyone Likes to Play with Jesus:
Here comes the ridiculous excuse of the “flesh” that is quickly shot down by scripture itself. Here is you argument:
Next: Does Jesus Have a Different Will Than God? No, Jesus was God made in flesh which means He got tempted on all points as we do[Hebrews 4:15] yet He did not sin. I know that you try your best to play down the “Jesus was in the flesh” argument but you cannot deny that Paul teaches strongly about the flesh and its desires being totally different from God’s even how it wars against God.
So since Jesus was being fought by His fleshly nature being also a man which the whole passage concerning Jesus’ prayer implies then yes you are deeply wrong even Jesus mad a comment to the disciples saying “the spirit is indeed willing but the flesh is weak“ do you suppose He was only talking about them. Notice when Jesus was being fought by Satan with temptations how the angels came to minister to Him [Matthew 4:11], but there is also another place where this occurs in [Luke 22:43] but you already knew that but skipped it right?
Luke 22: 42Saying, Father, if You are willing, remove this cup from Me; yet not My will, but Yours be done. 43And there appeared to Him an angel from heaven, strengthening Him in spirit. You say surely because in our world anyone who talks to themselves is insane and therefore you mock God Himself for doing so which is indeed a sin of many “for where did it ever say God does not command nor speak to Himself?”.
Therefore you are determining who God is based on worldly thinking. I have Scripture to back up my belief because I believe Jesus=God. Jesus had, but because He was in flesh had all of the knowledge and Power of God that God would allow any flesh to have. You do know that because He was God in the flesh He also humbled Himself by limiting Himself while in it and not boasting on the fact that He was indeed God [Philippians 2:6-8].
Arugment #1: Paul talks of the Flesh—Yes, we all struggle in the flesh. Does that make Paul God since he struggled in the flesh? Does it make Jesus God that he struggled in the flesh? No and No. Yes, Jesus obviously emptied himself of his heavenly body & presence before God, and came to Earth to humble himself & do God’s will. No doubt about it! Does this do one thing to help your argument Jesus=God? Not a bit! Does it hurt my argument? Not a bit!
Argument #2 Satan’s Temptation–Again, who in their right mind would offer God his own kingdom? That is the silliest thing I have heard! When God manifested as a burning bush, did Satan also offer to sell God something he had? When he was a whirlwind, did Satan also offer God something he already had? That is absurd. Jesus Christ is not God the Father. Satan offering God something that belongs to him is silly. It does nothing showing that Jesus was tempted to prove he was God in Flesh.
Argument #3 Talking to Ourselves Sounds Silly on Earth, But with God it Makes Sense—Right! It sure does sound silly how Jesus refers to the Father in 3rd person, yet every other manifestation of God we know about, God makes it clear who he is and refers to himself as “The Lord God.” He never talks about God as a “Father.” He says, “Myself.” Not “My Father.” Yet Jesus makes a clear distinction, before ascending, after ascending, etc. etc. You can’t deny it. You can completely ignore that fact, but you can’t deny it. I know that is killing you right now, because you can’t say 1 single thing about it. You know the truth. Jesus is not God, or he would have been talking in the first person. He would not have prayed to himself. He would not be divinding himself up from God. He would have clearly (beyond doubt) stated he was God just as many times as he said he was the Son of God & the Messiah. Yet Jesus himself only says 2 things that people try to claim means he is God “I and the father are One” (that one is a joke), and “Before Abraham was I am” (should be translated as I was, or I have been). Only 2 scriptures where Jesus own’ lips say anything even remotely close to he is God. Yet those are torn down like a mobile home in a twister…
Argument #4 I am Viewing God “Wordly”, and Jesus Power Was Limited—Once again, the flesh is not a light switch. You can’t say Jesus did miracles from his “God” nature, yet didn’t know things from his “fleshy” nature. This is a joke. Is this argument an April Fools gag? Come on. So he can miraculously heal people, and do all sorts of things without the “flesh” holding him back, yet he has no CLUE when the end of time is? Yeah right!
And he pleads with God to remove the cup, and cries out on the cross, “My God, My God, why have you forsaken me? So God forsakes himself? So God can’t answer his own prayer to pass a cup from himself? And then here comes the ultimate blasphemy…You suggest not only that God is a created thing (blasphemy), but you even suggest God can die! Holy Smokes! Friend, God Almighty cannot be killed. Not in any way. He is eternal period. Jesus Christ was in the grave 3 days before God granted him eternal life and raised him up. How would the universe exist if God was dead for 3 days??
And I see how you still ignore all of the questions I asked like, “Why is God saying, This is my son, listen to him?” Shouldn’t it be, This is me, listen to me!!
See, you are just absolutely not letting God’s word talk to you friend. You must look at scriptures, think critically & logically, and then compare that with the man-made doctrine you are choosing to believe. Scripture wins every time. Your Next Arguments…
Next: “Well then why was he able to know other things & even perform miracles.” Even you stated that Elijah did things of wonder in 1 Kings 17 but he was neither Messiah nor God and nor do I try to apply them to him but I correctly apply it to Jesus because He did even greater works than that of any prophet and wore His title as Messiah well. Now your question concerning the disciples is foolish on purpose because Jesus said that they may be one as we are One. You, in your shipwrecked thinking have sinned greatly because you deny the very God you claim to acknowledge. Most of if not all of your questions will be answered if you plug in the Truth. Have it not occurred to you that because you deny Christ and therefore God that the Scriptures will not reveal anything true to you [2 Peter 3:16].
I see that you dodged the first part completely. You didn’t even address it. I clearly showed you that Jesus did not do any miracles that were not already done. Elijah raised from the dead. Others healed people. Moses parted the sea, caused plagues, etc. There are tons of miracles in the bible by the Prophets. Was Jesus greater than the Prophets? Absolutely. He has more authority than them, and is the Messiah. You seem to have no explanation of how they did the same miracles, even in “fleshlyness.”
And once again, you don’t even provide an explanation for the second point you mention. You merely bring it up, and then say I don’t know God, and move on. That is not an answer! An answer addresses the question. By saying, “well, the answer to that is that you don’t know God” is a NON-ANSWER to the question. So both points here fail.
You try to prove Jesus is God by throwing the verse “my father and I are one” is quickly refuted by me showing you he said the same thing of the disciples. In fact, he even says he wants them to be one, just LIKE HE & the Father! So right here he proves he wants them to be one like he & the father are one. Obviously, the disciples aren’t going to magically fuse into the same being are they? No! So again, this is a terrible failure to answer the obvious questions, and again, a complete denial on your part to actually read between the lines & listen to the scripture. Here are some more arguments from you:
Let us now slice through your formula and interpret your sin. Here is your formula of error which you typed: “Jesus=X, God=X, and Holy Spirit=X. In other words, they are all the same thing, and have no other mind. So if I believe in (X), and Jesus is really God (X), then it doesn’t matter. I believed in God (X), and Jesus was (X). They are the same thing. How could God fault me? I accept what the bible says, which is that he is the Son of God & Messiah. I followed his word. I follow God’s laws. I repent of my sin. I believe Jesus died & was resurrected by God almighty. Simple! That is the gospel in a nutshell“.
Ok since you cannot see how error has grasp you and your soul then I will allow God to use me in order to shine light on your sin so that you can see how to repent in spirit and in truth. If you believe as you do that Jesus is not God the Father just the Son of God second to the Father then the formula would be this for Jesus/Son. Jesus=Y, God=X. X doesn’t equal Y. There for Jesus is not X but Y which goes against Scripture that God is One. Now since you believe that the Messiah is in fact something created by God and not God then your sins are not forgiven because God is indeed the Messiah and you think that Messiah is someone else.
So your Jesus and My Jesus may seem the same but they are not because you do not accept the same Jesus that I do. You, in fact are accepting an angel or spirit that you claim is your lord while accepting God Almighty which is a name lower than Jesus Christ as the Scripture declares [Ephesians 1:21]. The True God is only answering to Jesus Christ now and you do not call Him that but you call him “Jesus Christ the son of God second to God in authority” when in fact He is Jesus Christ the Son of God, Father God and the Holy Spirit of God. I will let this truth cling to your mind as Paul puts it in Galatians 1:8 “But should we, or an angel from Heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached to you, let him be accursed”.
Once again, the bible should reveal sin, not man-made doctrine. You absolutely cannot provide 1 rock solid verse that proves Jesus is God. I have crumbled them all down. The original Greek shows I am correct, logic shows I am correct, Jesus says I am correct in worshiping the Father only, Jesus says I am right that the Father is greater. You want to stick words in his mouth and say “he said it because of flesh.” That is sticking words in God’s holy bible. Never did Jesus say the father was greater, “Because he is at this point in the flesh.” Never one time can you show me Jesus’ own lips saying that. Not once! That is a man-made thing NOT BIBLE BASED!
My studies come directly from the text of the bible, not the mouth of “fleshy” men called pastors/preachers/clergy.
You are ABSOLUTELY right we believe in 2 Jesus’. My Jesus was the Son of God, the Messiah, and did God’s will. Your Jesus is some God-man, who is able to do incredible things from His God nature, but cannot know the end of time for the “flesh” switch clicks on and he forgets.
How dare you quote Ephesians 1:21 out of context & completely ignore the verse just before it showing God has all authority! Blasphemy! And about that Galatians quote, Yes, how dare anyone tamper with the gospel and put words in Jesus’ mouth! How dare someone create a trinity doctrine, or say the Son is the Father. Who would dare corrupt the word of God as such? Moving on….
Did God Die? Did Jesus Have to Be God to Sacrifice Himself?
Here is what you said about sacrifice:
Your sin is in not believing that God made a sacrifice because if God sent an angel or something He created then how is that son considered the Only Begotten or can receive an inheritance? But if God came Himself and took on our nature as a man then became the sacrifice for us by dieing in our place and left the sin nature behind while rising up again and inheriting what already belonged to Him but now belongs also to those who believe and would believe in Him as Who He really is then I am excited about that and do see God‘s Love for me and all men.
This is a great error you have (biblically) if you think your sins can only be forgiven if God dies. In the Old Testament, when a sacrifice was given and a person killed a Ram, Lamb, dove, etc. Who forgave the sin? Did the Ram forgive the sin? Or did God forgive the sin based on the Ram’s death?
If you are honest you know it was God doing the forgiving. What about in the story of Jonah. Did you know that God forgave them without requiring them do an animal sacrifice at all? He simply told them to repent, and they repented! This was enough for God.
So now you try to suggest that only God could have died and forgave our sin! Was it Jesus Christ who forgave our sin? Or is it God forgiving our sin based on Christs death on the cross? It is once again God’s mercy & love for us.
In fact, the bible spell this out very beautifully: For God so loved the world, he sent his only begotten son (not himself), not to condemn the world, but through him it might be saved.
God gave his Son to us to learn the word of God, to fulfill God’s mission, and to die a sinless person. God forgives our sin based on this. Just like Abraham was about to offer his Son Isaac, God offered his one and only begotten Son to us. That is beautiful!
To twist that truth and to say it was secretly God all along makes no sense. God cannot cease to exist! God cannot die! That is blasphemy to even suggest it! You are robbing God of his Glory, and you are at the same time denying Christ of his suffering! A perfect God can live a sinless life as a human…What statement does that make? But to say God’s Son came down, was tempted, yet loved the Father so much he did only His will, that is giving Glory to both God & showing how important the Son’s work was.
Your Final Words for Me:
Repent therefore and acknowledge that you are indeed in sin and greatly for you are not only in sin but teach others to take part in it with you and that is my greatest concern.
Indeed you reject Christ which means that you are not forgiven at all but blinded and have strayed far from the truth. I know that the Trinity is a doctrine instated which does not explain God but at least they believe that Jesus is God with the same authority as with the Father and the Holy Spirit. Will they be forgiven? They believe Him to be God and the Son of God and believe there is no Higher authority but all three are equal in power and authority.
You, however deny Him His rightful place as God altogether. And therefore you have rejected Jesus Christ the Son and the Father also by saying and believing God is above Jesus Christ. When Jesus said He would draw all men unto Himself and also said that no one can come to Him unless the Father draws them to Him. A loud bell should ring in your mind or anyone else’s who believe as you do. I have much more to say but as it is my letters are very long. Lastly I thank you for your time and I do hope you place this in the front page of your site with your response.
Before I begin, let me ask you a few questions: Do you chant to Mary, mother of God when you pray like Catholics? Do you believe God is a trinity? Do you believe that Mary in fact didn’t die, but was taken straight to heaven?
I am guessing you don’t believe any of those. Yet they are the same thing you believe! They are man-made doctrinal teachings. They are not based on the bible at all! What I can’t understand is how you are smart enough to dismiss those things, but you stop right there and don’t use your brain any more to see the truth in the scriptures!
If it says Jesus is God, I would believe it in a heartbeat. But it isn’t there. The reason you think it is, is because you have it wired into your brain that Jesus=God. So when you search the scripture, you immediately pounce on any verse that remotely looks like it might mean Jesus=God. Let me just illustrate how your man-made doctrine is affecting you:
I will show you an example using a few sentences below: Your job for this example is to read this short paragraph & prove that my wife is not only my wife, but also she is God in the flesh. Let’s see what you think:
My wife was praying to God last night. Afterwards, she said the Father in heaven is greater than her, and she can do nothing without God. She was walking outside one day, and went on a mountain to pray to God. We then went to church and she worshiped God and praised Him. We then had a conversation, and she told me how God had granted her life, how great God was. In fact, someone came up to her the other day and called her good. She corrected them and said, “Why do you call me good? There is none good but one, the Father.” Then, my wife came home one day with a lottery ticket in her hand. I doubted we had actually won. In fact, you could say I was a doubting Thomas. But my wife proved me wrong, she let me stick my fingers on the actual lottery ticket for proof so I could see for myself we had indeed won money. I fell on my knees, took one look at my wife, and said, “Oh my God.”
Now, if you are indoctrinated by man-made teachings that my wife is in fact God incarnate, you would search the scriptures to see if it were true. You would then immediately start pulling verses out of context when you thought you found one. You would ignore all other sentences/scriptures that prove they are 2 different things. You would have been all over the “Oh my God” phrase. But is that what I was really trying to say? Not at all. Neither is the bible in these terrible examples you & trinitarians use to try and say Jesus is his own Father.
The example above can be directly applied to the bible. You think all sorts of verses prove Jesus is God because you have been told that your whole life. You are being blinded by doctrine to the truth. You are picking & choosing scripture to prove something that it never says. When I point this out to you, you ignore it completely, have no worthy counter argument for why Jesus is still submitting to God in heaven, taking scrolls from him, sitting at his right hand, etc.
I have been where you are. I used to blindly accept the trinity. It isn’t scripturally there! Nor is Jesus God! None of that is true. To really believe Jesus is God, you have to completely accept what your church teaches, and blind yourself to the hundreds if not thousands of scripture that prove it false beyond any reasonable logic or doubt.
Sheer logic alone prove Jesus isn’t God. He is a separate thing. He is created (begotten by God). He had a beginning. God never had a creator. Jesus died. God cannot die! Blasphemy to say that, my friend!
Who is At Greatest Risk for Sin? My Belief? Or Yours?
Let me summarize by really revealing sin, shall I? Let us compare our beliefs to the word of God, and see which one prevails:
Your Belief:
You believe Jesus=God. You reject the trinity. You claim there is but 1 God, however, he has manifested himself in Jesus. You also say the Holy Spirit is God.
However, your view fails to make any sense. Why was Jesus “with” God in the beginning? Why would Jesus be hanging out with God in the beginning, or in Revelation? A manifestation does not continue to exist when the “real thing” is there. Why did Jesus only refer to God in 3rd person, and never said, “I” when referring to the father, yet at the same time, all other manifestations of God clearly reveal it is the Lord God, and he talks in 1st person??
Why is it you ignore all the hundreds & thousands of scriptures which show they are 2 different things, and instead favor verses with are mistranslated, taken out of context, and worse?? I just don’t get it. Not only can your view never make logical sense, but its scriptural support is easily knocked down.
Seriously, let’s say you are right for 1 minute. The whole New Testament makes no sense! It is crazy to think Jesus is God! The man gave no indication that he was. In fact, I even have a cartoon that I hope helps you understand how silly the belief that Jesus is God really is.
If You Are Wrong: If you are wrong that Jesus=God, you have committed one of the greatest sins ever: Idolatry. You have placed a creation above the creator. You have also (whether you are wrong or right), have several other problems: God can’t be created. God has no creator. God can’t die. To say the opposite of that is complete Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit of God. We know that is unforgivable (Jesus said so).
So it is quite clear that you have something big that you could possibly lose if you ar wrong. I know God is a forgiving God, and perhaps he will know your heart, and understand. However, I can’t make any guarantees now that the truth has been revealed in great detail.
If You Are Right: If you are correct, then great. I am glad for you. But I still would really work on that part of saying God has a creator, and that God can die. You also have major headaches coming your way if you try to rationalize how Jesus is God in Heaven, yet there are 2 of them as the bible repeatedly teaches.
Compare My Beliefs:
I, on the other hand, believe exactly what the bible (no man) tells me to believe. I believe Jesus is the Son of God, the Messiah, the savior who died on the cross. I believe he now sits at God’s right hand in power & glory. I believe that by following Jesus’ teachings, we follow God just like if we follow Moses, we follow God.
I believe God is separate as the bible (and even the trinity) declares. I believe the Father is greater as Jesus’ own lips, the disciples, and bible declares. I believe Jesus is created by God, the first creation of God. I believe in following God’s laws, repenting of Sin, and living a good life.
What if I Am Wrong? If I am wrong, then guess what? Nothing. That is right! It doesn’t matter. How do I know? Because I follow what Jesus’ lips say, not a preacher (who went to school & was taught that Jesus is God in order to pass class).
You cannot find 1 single verse that says we have to believe Jesus is the Father. Not one! And it shocks me that you still hold to this belief, even though it isn’t found 1 single time. Instead, you choose to rely on ridiculous verses which clearly are not trying to say Jesus is the Supreme God (the Father).
Not only that, but Jesus even plainly says, “Anyone who commits blasphemy against the Son is forgiven. But not against the Holy Spirit.” So even Jesus says it is forgiven if you blaspheme his “flesh”, but not his God.
Not only that, but to deny Jesus is to reject his teaching, reject that he is the Messiah, to reject he is the Son of God. I accept all of those. The only thing I reject is the non-sense notion that Jesus is God. To believe this, you must deny Jesus’ own teaching, and he clearly teaches he HAS A GOD. He never teaches he IS THE GOD.
If I am Right: Then I gain everything. I have nothing to lose, everything to gain. Not only that, but I can back up everything with logic, scripture, evidence, and common sense. Nothing can be shown to contradict my views. Anything in the bible that is the proper translation or in the proper context only strengthens my views, and supports my case & belief system.
Conclusion: A Few Final Words:
Again, I want to geniunely thank you for everything! It has been a pleasure talking & debating theology with you! My only hope is that you continue to search the scriptures, and aren’t blinded by doctrine.
I am not asking you to quit attending church, or anything else. I know a lot of great churches exist, and I hope you have one. All I ask is that at some point you really take time to examine the scriptures, examine these verses, hear my arguments in your mind, and try to see for yourself what is truth. You don’t have to believe Jesus is God. Nowhere does it say that the Son is the Father. You simply cannot make it sound logical, even by using the “flesh” excuse.
I know that you are avoiding the truth. The bible says we should worship God in truth. You know in your heart I have made some arguments that you cannot answer. You know in your heart that you are using “scam” verses that say right before or right after that obviously Jesus isn’t the Father (such as your Ephesians example). You know you are bending the scripture more than a clown bends those balloons to make those animal shapes.
I think that over time, my words will sink in and you will eventually come to the light of Christ, which shines directly to God. What you don’t realize is that “everyone thinks they are right” when it comes to politics and religion. A trinitarian out there thinks they are just as right as you do. A Muslim thinks they are just as right as you are. A Jew thinks they are just as right as you are. You do realize that, right? Not only that, but look in the first few chapters of Revelation and you will see Jesus has to correct every churhc as they were wrong in something.
Again, remember that I used to accept the trinity. I used to believe Jesus is God. The truth set me free. Listen to the scriptures. God’s word makes sense to those who understand it. If you can’t explain something, it probably isn’t true.
Thanks again for all of your comments. I wish you well. God bless, and good luck!
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